Curse

Dusk_ · Aug 06, 2009, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Wrong , you still lack perspective , did i ever say roj ? man monks have a WHOLE att line ded to damage ( and do damage while doing other things like prevent them ) wich is smitting prayers. Dont make same mistakes again no one said BUILDS , i said WHOLE ATTS .
For gods sake read yourself , compare Dervishes to Rangers ? in what world pal ? same armor and ..... nothing else ! . A hybrid here would be 50/50 and D's are nowhere near that , if D's are hybrid , Paragons , Assassins , Ritualists , Monks , Elementalists and Mesmers are too . Read meaning of Hybrid , a Support can be also a Hybrid Support , it has nothing to do with the functions you see on the paper , it has to do with the things they do ( whole attrib lines ) ingame and the WAY they do it ( builds and skills ) because THAT is reality.

Quote:

hy⋅brid
/ˈhaɪbrɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [hahy-brid] Show IPA
Use hybrid in a Sentence
–noun
1. the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, esp. as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.
2. a person or group of persons produced by the interaction or crossbreeding of two unlike cultures, traditions, etc.
3. anything derived from heterogeneous sources, or composed of elements of different or incongruous kinds: a hybrid of the academic and business worlds.
4. a word composed of elements originally drawn from different languages, as television, whose components come from Greek and Latin.

Interesting..."50/50" seems to be missing. From what it says here, all you need to do is be "composed of elements of different or incongruous kinds". Casting spells and dealing melee damage? Seems to fit the definition quite well.

Quote:

Mysticism would be fine FOR YOU as it is but many other ppl dont think that , can YOU understand that ? . The fact is that no matter what you say , D's now need a boost and is NOT because their enchants dont do damage , is NOT because they dont have e-management .... is because COMPARED to the profs you have to compare them with ( the other 2 melees , yes wake up ) they LACK DPS . Whatever the damage it comes from , it doesnt matter and another fact , if YOU say that Mysticism is right then enchs dmg now are right ( because boosting PbaoE damage would be stupid ) the ONLY way to buff them ( and not the other scythe wielders too ) is BOOSTING in some way their main att by affecting damage done with Scythe at melee.

What part of "DAMAGE ISN'T EVERYTHING" is so hard to understand?

The reason this thread exists in the first place is because Dervishes are crap at dealing damage. That's clearly why you're complaining so much. If they suck at damage dealing, why are you so certain that they're damage dealers?

If Dervishes could PBoAE spam deep wound, bleeding, burning, and blind and do it effectively and quickly, while still dealing moderate damage, how is that not useful?

Dervishes are comparable to Rangers because they are not built as primary damage dealers, but at mass utility. Dervishes should be better at mass utility because they're doing it at melee range.

Quote:

Yeah , we know how dervish work , now READ moriz and stormx . The thing is that no one is saying here D's should die , instead they are bringing up their flaws and trying to make them less bad or a little better , but DENIAL ....... that doesnt help pal , not at all.

No, you're the only one that's in denial here.

Dervishes being crap at damage != Dervishes being dead. There are 6 other classes that are proof of that fact.

Just because you want your dervish to spam huge numbers doesn't mean that's the only solution.

draxynnic · Aug 06, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

If Dervishes could PBoAE spam deep wound, bleeding, burning, and blind and do it effectively and quickly, while still dealing moderate damage, how is that not useful?

Don't forget weakness, cripple, stripping enchantments from enemies, and healing allies. Now, some of those may not be powerful enough in their current form to be worth making a build around, but with such a variety of skill effects it seems obvious the Dervish was intended to be more than just a damage dealer. Consider the way some Dervish mobs behave - Margonite Reapers, for instance, present at least as much of a problem from the support they provide than from the damage they do themselves, and the well-known orders dervish is just taking this principle to the extreme.

Tenebrae · Aug 06, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Interesting..."50/50" seems to be missing. From what it says here, all you need to do is be "composed of elements of different or incongruous kinds". Casting spells and dealing melee damage? Seems to fit the definition quite well.

Like i already told you before ( i dont know if you even bother to read ) then Assassins are Hybrids too ( fits the definition YOU just gave ) and for YOUR general definition , E , R and M are Hybrids too . it has no sense to go on this way because the way YOU call them isnt gonna change anything and you cant use that definition to argue anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

What part of "DAMAGE ISN'T EVERYTHING" is so hard to understand?

I never said so dude , ( again , read and understand ) , the FACT is that if you BOOST its scythe damage tied to mysticism you will fix something ( direct damage ) that will help to rise D's a little bit because YOU ( yes, once again ) said that melee spells and so on are fine as they are NOW. So whats the prob ? you are agreeing with me dude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

The reason this thread exists in the first place is because Dervishes are crap at dealing damage. That's clearly why you're complaining so much. If they suck at damage dealing, why are you so certain that they're damage dealers?

Im not complaining lol , you are getting it wrong. I already told you that they dont HAVE TO be damage dealers , they have to deal decent damage with its weapon compared to the other ones that use it ( again , read and understand ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

If Dervishes could PBoAE spam deep wound, bleeding, burning, and blind and do it effectively and quickly, while still dealing moderate damage, how is that not useful?

Good for you , did i ever said that it wasnt USEFUL ? please remind me. The fact is that THIS thread is about ppl that DONT think its enough
, and if you disagree , feel free to leave mate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Dervishes are comparable to Rangers because they are not built as primary damage dealers, but at mass utility. Dervishes should be better at mass utility because they're doing it at melee range.

Thats the way they are NOW , and doesnt mean thats the way they should be ( gosh , please read carefully before quoting ). If you like them now , dont waste your time on a thread that is proposing things to "fix" something that you dont think that needs to be "fixed" . Easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

No, you're the only one that's in denial here.
Dervishes being crap at damage != Dervishes being dead. There are 6 other classes that are proof of that fact.
Just because you want your dervish to spam huge numbers doesn't mean that's the only solution.

Dont make up things i never said and answer them , its pointless. My Dervish to spam huge numbers ? oh pal , you are totally wrong .

Now i ask you , what part in the thread title says that this "fix" should go on the melee spells of the D' ? . People here is saying multiple things , if you dont like it , but dont try to throw things down because you dont like them. Dont like my fixes or anyone else ? good for you , bye .

SumoutoriDreams · Aug 06, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

This is quite ridiculous. If we're talking damage, dervishes need a buff just as much as any other attacking profession (I'd vote ranger needs a damage buff more than anyone else). Sure, dervishes arent exactly unique, but its hard to be after warrior and assassin.

Most of you sit here and compare melee professions. But most of you fail to realize all armor-affected damage becomes cut by alot in HM (I dont know how a dervish's damage could suck with AoHM &/or asuran scan). Doesnt matter if you use a scythe or axe or whatever.

Speaking of scythes, another point most of you fail to see is that any/D scythes dont have the option of runes. Because of this, a sin or a warrior's scythe dps is never significantly larger than a dervish's, given AoHM+scan is up.

Most of you are also confused as to what a dervish is supposed to do in a party. But the thing is, when it comes down to simple frontlining, there isnt one melee profession that does things significantly different than others. A warrior may have armor, but in large mobs, the sheer amount of hits can drain a healer just as fast as a sin or dervish (keyword:healer). Prots come in handy here. With prots, you can forget the tank mentality when bar building (especially if it cuts your damage down), and the frontline can actually kill something. Case in point, do as much damage as you can, and make sure someone can prot you all the while.

Im not going to even mention PBAoE for dervishes.

Dusk_ · Aug 07, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Like i already told you before ( i dont know if you even bother to read ) then Assassins are Hybrids too ( fits the definition YOU just gave ) and for YOUR general definition , E , R and M are Hybrids too . it has no sense to go on this way because the way YOU call them isnt gonna change anything and you cant use that definition to argue anything.

Assassins are not designed to cast spells and do melee at the same time. They are either spellcasters, or melee characters.

Dervishes are geared to do both at the same time.

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I never said so dude , ( again , read and understand ) , the FACT is that if you BOOST its scythe damage tied to mysticism you will fix something ( direct damage ) that will help to rise D's a little bit because YOU ( yes, once again ) said that melee spells and so on are fine as they are NOW. So whats the prob ? you are agreeing with me dude.

Uh...no, I never said melee spells are fine. They take too long to cast, the change in Pious Assault stopped the spamming of their effects, and right now too many of them are just "deal damage when cast" instead of giving decent utility.

Quote:

Im not complaining lol , you are getting it wrong. I already told you that they dont HAVE TO be damage dealers , they have to deal decent damage with its weapon compared to the other ones that use it ( again , read and understand ).

So how are you not saying that you want dervish to be better damage dealers?

You want their scythe DAMAGE to comparable to classes that exist solely for DAMAGE.

Dervishes deal plenty of damage, when compared to Paragons and Rangers. Why do they need more?

Quote:

Good for you , did i ever said that it wasnt USEFUL ? please remind me. The fact is that THIS thread is about ppl that DONT think its enough
, and if you disagree , feel free to leave mate.

How can it "not be enough" when they don't do it at all?

Dervishes suck at utility now because of casting speeds, energy management and lack of enabling skills.

Right now, all they can do is damage - damage that is crap compared to other characters.

Dervishes could be doing things that other classes cannot, so why not let them do it well?

Quote:

Thats the way they are NOW , and doesnt mean thats the way they should be ( gosh , please read carefully before quoting ). If you like them now , dont waste your time on a thread that is proposing things to "fix" something that you dont think that needs to be "fixed" . Easy.

As I said...they aren't that way now.

Quote:

Dont make up things i never said and answer them , its pointless. My Dervish to spam huge numbers ? oh pal , you are totally wrong .

Now i ask you , what part in the thread title says that this "fix" should go on the melee spells of the D' ? . People here is saying multiple things , if you dont like it , but dont try to throw things down because you dont like them. Dont like my fixes or anyone else ? good for you , bye .

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

This thread is about "fixing dervishes". Not "fixing melee damage".

Increasing melee damage does absolutely nothing to fix anything. Either dervishes become stronger than assassins and warriors, or remain weaker. That's it. Either way you still have something being broken.

Shrimz · Aug 07, 2009, 01:19 AM // 01:19

lol fixed...

Shriketalon · Aug 07, 2009, 02:31 AM // 02:31

The way I see it, dervishes are designed to do three things.

1) Scythe stuff. Hit things with a blade on a stick.

2) Be a walking bomb. Enchantment damage, AoE effects, all of that.

3) Give a scratch on the back. Heal the party and themselves.

Currently, though, the scythe is failing, the walking bomb is awkward, and the backscratcher is using other professions instead of its own.

My bundle of potentially imbalanced suggestions?

Improving the Stick

Buff Mysticism skills.

Heart of Fury and AoHM have been mentioned a lot. Make them maintainable.

Change Eremite's Zeal to an offensive skill. Give a damage bonus to your next attack based on the number of adjacent opponents.

Pious Fury- Change function to avoid being incompatible with HoF. For example, "for 2...5...6 seconds, you strike twice with non-skill attacks." Still a short duration buff, allows you to spike when your attack skills are still recharging.

Remove the skill disabled function on the avatars. Let's face it, with Eternal Aura, we can keep them up forever as it is. Let's just simplify it. Buff a few avatars in different ways, reverting Grenth, for example.

Meanwhile, play with a different function for Eternal Aura, perhaps? Maybe something that reduces the cost of enchantments targeting you? Or an enchantment extension skill?

Building a Bomb

Change some skills to be more in line with Sand Shards to make bombing more fun. Ideally, we should be able to do what Varesh did. Make areas explode.

Possibilities?

Functional changes:
Aura of Thorns- "For 30 seconds, Aura of Thorns ends early if you use an attack skill. When Aura of Thorns ends, it creates a zone at your location for 10 seconds that deals X damage each second and cripples nearby foes."
Staggering Force- "For 30 seconds, Staggering Force ends early if you use an attack skill. When Staggering Force ends, it creates a sand storm at your location that deals X damage each second for 10 seconds to nearby foes."
Grenth's Aura- "For 30 seconds, Grenth's Aura ends early if you use an attack skill. When Grenth's Aura ends, it creates a zone at your location that deals X cold damage each second for 10 seconds and inflicts Cracked Armor on nearby foes." Death comes more swiftly, helps break down the front line troops.
Rending Aura- "For 30 seconds, Rending Aura ends early if you use an attack skill. When Rending Aura ends, it creates a zone at your location that removes all enchantments and prevents nearby enemies from being the target of enchantments." Mini Well of the Profane, anyone?
(E) Grenth's Grasp- "For 30 seconds, Grenth's Grasp ends early if you use an attack skill. When Grenth's Grasp ends, it creates a zone at your location that deals X cold damage each second for 10 seconds and inflicts Deep Wound on nearby foes."

Taken together, these should let the dervish erupt into a point blank area nuke, or to augment his scything with a quick cripple or bomb here and there. Of course, scattering applies, so he'll have to be careful.

Playing Nice With Friends

And finally, healing.

Perhaps to distance himself from the monk and rit, the derv should focus on healing from a different perspective. And given that he already tries to be the area effect attack and area effect bomber, why not an AoE healbot?

Faithful Intervention- All allies in the area cannot loose more that 10% of their maximum health in a single spell/attack. Ends after X number of attacks. Dervs have the whammo vibe through and through, so give them the lovechild of Watch Yourselves and Protective Spirit.
Imbue Health- Same effect, but applies itself to all allies in the area, centered on you. Stay alive, and help your close friends do the same.
Watchful Intervention- Same effect, but applies itself to all allies in the area, centered on you.
Dwayna's Touch- Spell. Heal yourself and all allies nearby/in the area for X health.
Mystic Healing- All nearby/in the area allies are healed X for each enchantment on you, maximum Y.
(E) Pious Renewal- Turn it into a short range heal + hex/condition removal effect to bolster the entire frontline.

Make it so having a dervish in the front of the party actually helps the healers, taking the pressure off of them as the holy zealot keeps the warriors or assassins on their feet.

Balance, as usual, might be a bit off, so tweak as desired.

draxynnic · Aug 07, 2009, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Interesting suggestions, Shrike.

Any buff to AoHM should be tied to Mysticism, and possibly even nerf its use for professions without Mysticism (although it should still be usable). A possible alteration could be to make it 15 seconds plus one for every rank in Mysticism, or 20 seconds plus one for every two ranks.

Regarding your Building a Bomb suggestions - I think you may be overestimating the value of PBAoEDoTs. The Dervish could probably use a few more, but some improvements to the instantaneous nukes might be better than going overboard on them. Making them synergise better with Mysticism may also be a big help.

Tenebrae · Aug 07, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Assassins are not designed to cast spells and do melee at the same time. They are either spellcasters, or melee characters.

Dervishes are geared to do both at the same time.

False , while you are casting you are NOT attacking and sins spells affect directly to combos , hell , there are some combos that CANT be achieved without Hexes. D dont get NOTHING by using a scythe under X enchants that any other prof wouldnt get and you know it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

So how are you not saying that you want dervish to be better damage dealers?

You want their scythe DAMAGE to comparable to classes that exist solely for DAMAGE.

No no no no noooooooo no , skillful misunderstander noooooooooo. For the 20th time NOOOOO. I dont want them to be damage dealers , i just say that they should be better or get some benefit the other scythe swingers dont have and the only way is MYSTICISM for god sake this is like talking to a wall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Dervishes suck at utility now because of casting speeds, energy management and lack of enabling skills.

Right now, all they can do is damage - damage that is crap compared to other characters.

That is YOUR opinion , many ppl dont think so and thats it . YOu dont like that ? fine , but it doesnt mean we are wrong. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

This thread is about "fixing dervishes". Not "fixing melee damage".

Increasing melee damage does absolutely nothing to fix anything. Either dervishes become stronger than assassins and warriors, or remain weaker. That's it. Either way you still have something being broken.

You are talking like I was a D QQing for not being a damage dealer and you couldnt be more WRONG . God dammit you are talking like melee damage wasnt part of D's Task and IT IS , and one of the 2 main tasks no matter what you say.
And yes , it wont fix anything because NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT FIXING MELEE DAMAGE. What im trying to say is that its melee damage has to be better or different or have SOMETHING that DIRECTLY affects it that rest of scythe swingers dont have. I dont know how many times do i have to say this , i thought it was easy to understand but im tired of throwing words to a wall . Theres a big diff between underpowered , weak , decent , not bad and totally overpowered. You dont seem to get it so GG dude , you win .

reaper with no name · Aug 08, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumoutoriDreams

This is quite ridiculous. If we're talking damage, dervishes need a buff just as much as any other attacking profession (I'd vote ranger needs a damage buff more than anyone else). Sure, dervishes arent exactly unique, but its hard to be after warrior and assassin.

Most of you sit here and compare melee professions. But most of you fail to realize all armor-affected damage becomes cut by alot in HM (I dont know how a dervish's damage could suck with AoHM &/or asuran scan). Doesnt matter if you use a scythe or axe or whatever.

Speaking of scythes, another point most of you fail to see is that any/D scythes dont have the option of runes. Because of this, a sin or a warrior's scythe dps is never significantly larger than a dervish's, given AoHM+scan is up.

Most of you are also confused as to what a dervish is supposed to do in a party. But the thing is, when it comes down to simple frontlining, there isnt one melee profession that does things significantly different than others. A warrior may have armor, but in large mobs, the sheer amount of hits can drain a healer just as fast as a sin or dervish (keyword:healer). Prots come in handy here. With prots, you can forget the tank mentality when bar building (especially if it cuts your damage down), and the frontline can actually kill something. Case in point, do as much damage as you can, and make sure someone can prot you all the while.

Im not going to even mention PBAoE for dervishes.

The benefits of 16 scythe mastery versus 12 is that your damage rating is 100 instead of 92. The bonus is miniscule, especially when compared to the benefits of Strength and Critical Strikes. W/Ds have something like 30 dps on the dervish.

Also, the problem isn't that people are imagining the dervish wrong. They can't be for the purposes of this, because no matter how you imagine them, the warrior and assassin beat them. Scything? A/Ds and W/Ds win. Tanking? Once again, dervishes lose. Enchantment spamming? The vastly superior energy management of the W/Ds and A/Ds far outweighs the slight bonuses a dervish gets via runes. No matter how you look at it, the dervish is inferior.

Celtus · Aug 11, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Dervishes are fine, have been fine, and (should) continue to be fine. Stop making these threads.

Room for improvement is there, in mysticism skills (alot of them are very weak and not worth slot on a skill bar), and wind prayers (far too many cripple/increase movement speed skills).

Also..the mysticism effect..the energy gain is VERY good, if you dont play derv for energy gain on enchant ending, you shouldnt play it at all. However the health gain upon enchants ending is very weak and unnoticeable. It may as well not be there at all..maybe fix the 'health gain' effect to be something more useful.

You think dervishes should be able to do more damage with scythes? lol? In pvp i can already kill casters and low armor professions in 3-4 hits (if my spike doesnt do critically LOW damage-big damage range on scythe). Any buff to dervishes scythe damage would be extremely overpowered in the hands of any player who isnt a total newb.

^ btw this is not as much of a noob-friendly profession like warrior or assassin, you cant press 123 to get past every obstacle. There is a steeper learning curve to playing this profession (effectively).

What are dervishes the best at? Mine is quite good at everything (besides things like spirit summoning and minion raising..)

p.s. pbaoe knockdown on short recharge enchants ending would be ridiculous - are you serious? imagine using it twice in a row (casting it and waiting until recharge time is up...removing, recasting, removing) it would be like grasping was kuurong in enchant form..way overpowered

Arghore · Aug 11, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

First off, i do not play a Dervish, so it is hard for me to understand if there is actually something broken or not; mainly because die-hard dervishes say there is nothing wrong with them, where others claim they are not even worth a character slot...

Problem?
But, if it is indeed the case that R/D, W/D and A/D using a scyth are better at Dervishing then a D/* is with a similar build, then clearly something is 'wrongish',

Analysis 1
as i would emagine the primairy profession to be the better at using its skills, then using these same skills as a 2e profession
(this is mainly how i understand the Prophecies professions to work) ...

Analysis 2
Then it is also the case that, as a */D, you can't get the attribute beyond 12-ish, where a D/* would be able to get said attribute to 16+, if anything, this should make the difference between damage/effect output of the skills used.

Analysis 3
Given the Scyth is the weapon for the Dervish, i would conclude that the primairy attribute 'mysticism' (not available for */D) should give a buff to the Dervish that makes it better at Dervishing; From what i read in threads sofar, this should be Scyth using and Enchantment Jugling (casting/stripping) *correct me if i misunderstood*

Solution Scythbuff?
Sofar i understand weapons to be mainly the same in set-up, meaning, all melee weapons have similar buff upgrades, as do casting weapons; so i see no real need to make a Scyth a different weapon in relation to its use... Each melee weapon comes with a set of skills and the upgrades used are largely depending on the players preferences, and in some cases the preference for the build this player runs (be it vamp/ zeal/ penetrating/ damagetype) ... From this i would say giving the Dervish a buff to Scyth damage output on say mysticism, would make it viable to also add this buff to say Tactics for using a melee weapon as a worrior

... or a buff to the damage of Axe/Sword/Hammer's, depending on the lvl of the attribute (which to me sounds silly, as this relation is currently allready there, through the skills in the attribute catagory) ... so, /not signed for buffing the Dervish in this way..

Sollution Enchantment buff?
The Enchantment Jugling then becomes a way to buff the Dervish, if indeed the current jugling is 'broken'; unfortunatly i lack experience in dervish use to know if a buff here would fix things. But since the Mysticism attribute is currently related to this jugling and the bonus to this is related with HP/E management (which indeed makes it a harder profession to play, and perhaps not the best choise for a newer player, but it could be the next challenge for a long time Warrior). A Buff here might be viable ... But, as this is HP/E management this will not solve the Damage Output 'problem' as is currently put forth as the main problem, in relation with 2e prof. */D Dervishes.
** So perhaps the Dervish needs some more Enchantments and or strips to further its speciality in this damage/buff niche?

Solution Attribute Points
So from this i must conclude that if there is truely something wrong, the sollution must be found in the scaling of effect/output of the skills related to the attribute lvl. As apparently raising your scythmastery to 12 makes it to powerfull when being used as a 2e prof. To me this would mean scaling down the effects/output for <12 attributed, and keep the 12+ as it is now ... Mainly meaning a Nerf to the 2e prof. /D builds;
Kindoff disappointing to me

to draw this conclusion, as a Buff sounds way more positive then a Nerf; but from this analysis i can't find an other simple way to give 'Dervishing' back to the Dervish, in relation to the */D builds that are said to outdervish them...

Celtus · Aug 11, 2009, 07:27 PM // 19:27

thank you for your input Arghore. I too have been thinking there should be a more significant difference in damage between attribute levels...a 12 attribute should not have comparable damage to a 15 or 16 attrib..or so it seems to me.

Targren · Aug 11, 2009, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

- Bring back Enchantment juggling.
-Make HoF maintainable

Those two would be plenty for me. The former because I'd like to not have to have Attacker's Insight stapled to my bar rather than having anything resembling Energy Management from a primary that's supposed to be all about it...

The second is variable. Any IAS that doesn't suck would be just fine, honestly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

Solution Scythbuff?
From this i would say giving the Dervish a buff to Scyth damage output on say mysticism, would make it viable to also add this buff to say Tactics for using a melee weapon as a worrior

... or a buff to the damage of Axe/Sword/Hammer's, depending on the lvl of the attribute (which to me sounds silly, as this relation is currently allready there, through the skills in the attribute catagory) ... so, /not signed for buffing the Dervish in this way..

I'm confused by your objection here... Tactics is a bad example, since it's not the warrior primary. Strength is, and it DOES buff sword/axe/hammer (as well as everything else, including scythes... that's part of the issue...) damage...

Lishy · Aug 11, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

W/D isn't strong because of it alone. It's strong because of the suberb energy management of Warrior's Endurance and skills like Power attack which deal twice the damage of normal scythe skills. Strength has very little damage boosts, albiet, it helps a lot on high end areas.

Arghore · Aug 12, 2009, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

I'm confused by your objection here... Tactics is a bad example, since it's not the warrior primary. Strength is, and it DOES buff sword/axe/hammer (as well as everything else, including scythes... that's part of the issue...) damage...

Sorry, i tried to make a funny with some sarcasm, the

should have been the givaway

Hmm, well the Warrior is the melee weapon specialist so it having a buff on using melee weapons sounds sensible; but there i would have to say im not much of a warrior either

... I have tried for a N/W in RA to many times to say it's pretty hard, and for some reason ppl start leaving the team when they see im trying for such a build

(

); in the correct group there should be posibilities for the N/W though; but asto not getting tomuch off topic... this means im not very familiar with the Strength attribute...

I would guess with Warriors endurance and a zealous one could get some decent energy going that would make for some medium casting abilities, but with the attribute nerf <12, damage from scyth related attacks/skills should be less then the Dervish, whom would be able to run these attacks on 16+

Then again using warrior skills with a Scyth should still be viable way to do alot of damage... the warrior is not a dervish, but a dervish isnt a warrior either ... from their background they sound somewhat like a jack of all trades, whom can never realy be a specialist in anything

... Enchantment jugling, with decent scyth mastery and melee bombing on the side, does seem like somewhat of a speciality niche though...

A warrior with a scyth should do warrior damage with a melee weapon, i guess if a dervish isnt a warrior, damage the dervish does with a melee weapon could well be less then a warrior; but then a warrior isnt realy suited for bombing and jugling enchantment, or are these skills also available to W/D ?!? (sigh hard to comment on these things if one isnt to sure what one is talking about, and can only relate to the main concepts

and not all the in's and out's of every skill out there )

**I would guess modifying the scyth's attribute for the <12 could be a good first, to see if this would sort things out and keep things balanced, after that perhaps some skills need to be tweaked to get the odd combo back in line ... so the dervishish can atleast be dervish again, without turning into Superhero's

draxynnic · Aug 12, 2009, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

A warrior with a scyth should do warrior damage with a melee weapon, i guess if a dervish isnt a warrior, damage the dervish does with a melee weapon could well be less then a warrior; but then a warrior isnt realy suited for bombing and jugling enchantment, or are these skills also available to W/D ?!? (sigh hard to comment on these things if one isnt to sure what one is talking about, and can only relate to the main concepts

and not all the in's and out's of every skill out there )

According to the nameless reaper, yes - the W/D has "more energy than (s)he knows what to do with thanks to Warrior's Endurance." I'm skeptical, myself (even WE with a scythe has a limit, time spent enchantment bombing is time not spent swinging the scythe to get energy out of WE, and the Dervish has Zealous Vow to be able to do the same thing and Mysticism on top of it) but it's probably true that the W/D can at least cherrypick the best of the bombs.

Reverend Dr · Aug 12, 2009, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Lately I decided to pick up my old Dervish. Running Vow Of Strength and Aura of Holy Might feels the same as running w/d (d/w complete with SY). Same damage ranges with just those two as the warrior with aura of holy might + Asuran scan.

draxynnic · Aug 12, 2009, 02:39 AM // 02:39

The W/D won't find themselves effectively having no elite as soon as Cracked Armour or Bleeding gets thrown, however - a lot of builds rely on various conditions to keep the enemy honest.

reaper with no name · Aug 12, 2009, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtus

Dervishes are fine, have been fine, and (should) continue to be fine. Stop making these threads.

Room for improvement is there, in mysticism skills (alot of them are very weak and not worth slot on a skill bar), and wind prayers (far too many cripple/increase movement speed skills).

Also..the mysticism effect..the energy gain is VERY good, if you dont play derv for energy gain on enchant ending, you shouldnt play it at all. However the health gain upon enchants ending is very weak and unnoticeable. It may as well not be there at all..maybe fix the 'health gain' effect to be something more useful.

You think dervishes should be able to do more damage with scythes? lol? In pvp i can already kill casters and low armor professions in 3-4 hits (if my spike doesnt do critically LOW damage-big damage range on scythe). Any buff to dervishes scythe damage would be extremely overpowered in the hands of any player who isnt a total newb.

^ btw this is not as much of a noob-friendly profession like warrior or assassin, you cant press 123 to get past every obstacle. There is a steeper learning curve to playing this profession (effectively).

What are dervishes the best at? Mine is quite good at everything (besides things like spirit summoning and minion raising..)

p.s. pbaoe knockdown on short recharge enchants ending would be ridiculous - are you serious? imagine using it twice in a row (casting it and waiting until recharge time is up...removing, recasting, removing) it would be like grasping was kuurong in enchant form..way overpowered

Give me a PvE Dervish build that doesn't involve one of the following skills:

WS, AoM, AoD, GftE

And I will give you a build for another profession that beats it in every possible way.

Mysticism is pathetically weak when it comes to energy management. You'll only be able to break even on a 5 energy enchantment with 15 Mysticism. Granted, there's also enchantments from other characters, but consider this: in real play, the more you spam the good enchantments (10 or 15 energy), the more energy you lose, because you'll still be losing 5 or 10 energy per casting. 4 pips of energy regen simply does not combat that. But you know what does? WE. Critical Strikes. Sure, you can keep up if you use zealous vow, but then you have to wonder where all the attribute points for your enchantment spamming will come from. No matter what a dervish does, they're screwed. The competition beats them. Scything, enchantment spamming, tanking, you name it.

Dervishes would be ok if it weren't for the fact that other professions can use their own skills better than they can.